MX-5 Miata Forum > NA/NB (1990-2005) Miata > NA (1990-1997) General Discussion > Clutch issue
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91miata1
15th February 2014, 17:19
Hey Miata guys. So I purchased a Miata yesterday. It's a 91 with 80k miles on it. Previous owner raped the body and slammed it, but that's something I'll address in another topic. For now the clutch issue.
So the clutch seems to work fine. Holds power fine, no slipping. Usually engages and disengages fine. However, sometimes when I'm coasting to a stop with the car in gear, the clutch will try to grab slightly and I have to force it out of gear to keep it from stalling, then release and push the clutch back in to get in in gear. From there it takes off and shifts fine. It is completely random when this happens. I'm very familiar with manual vehicles, but not so much hydraulic clutches. So, where should I start diagnosing?
3MiataFamily
15th February 2014, 18:45
Check the clutch mast reservoir..make sure it is full..if not, you have a leak..usually the slave cylinder...bolted to the passenger side of the trans..visible thru the passenger front wheelwell...easy change..PITA to bleed the air out..
peel the boot on the slave back..if wet in there, change the slave...
L. Anthony
15th February 2014, 18:51
^^^^^^^
After finding the issue you may want to replace the line. replacing the line with the new straight, noncurly one, makes bleeding easier. in addition, the line may be failing. Probably not, since that should give the opposite issue, as in keeps the clutch out. It may be time to check the master too.
3miata is an expert with loads of experience. Check slave and run from there.
91miata1
15th February 2014, 19:08
I will definitely check into this as soon as I can figure out how to jack the car up. Previous owner put racelands on it and slammed it...so I have to figure out how to fix this and get some suspension back in the car.
3MiataFamily
15th February 2014, 19:16
LoPro harbor freight jack works really well for getting under a lowered car...or drive up on a couple boards so your jack will work..
Edit: far from an expert in some areas, but i see a LOT of Miatas in my garage...(me and electricity are not friendly)..probably changed 10 slave cylinders last year...Motive pressure bleeder is REALLY nice to have available...
91miata1
15th February 2014, 19:29
Yeah I need to figure out how to jack it up and then adjust the coil overs. I want to raise it up at least an inch. He did novice fender and quarter pulls and they are absolutely awful. And it rubs at full lock. I'm not a low and slow kind of guy at All.
L. Anthony
15th February 2014, 19:36
You can check the slave from above just a bit harder. After getting the pass front wheel off should be easier. Is the fluid full? Hard to see without opening the clutch flud container since the plastic stains. Keep us posted.
This is one fix you can definitely do.
ps thanks for saving another Miata
91miata1
15th February 2014, 19:44
I'm not worried about doing the actual repair, I have the tools and everything. Cars are my passion. I've been wrenching for years. I was an auto mechanic before my current job, as a helicopter mechanic.
I've always been a muscle guy, but I also secretly had a thing for Miatas. I really feel I over paid for this car, but I saw the poor thing sitting there slammed an cambered, and covered in plastidip, and I had to save it.
91miata1
15th February 2014, 20:06
So here's a couple of pics so you can see the stance...And the horrible pulls.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/demond349/Mobile%20Uploads/1392508831277.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/demond349/Mobile%20Uploads/1392508887985.jpg
Tires are 195/50/R15, not sure if it's running spacers. If I cut the fenders and quarters and went with some flares, raised it an inch or two, would I be able to clear without rubbing, and get rid of the rear camber?
L. Anthony
16th February 2014, 09:37
Tires size should be okay. Offset on the wheels and/or spacers may have to be lost. Once up to height things should work out. With that camber does the car jump around like a bad record player?
91miata1
16th February 2014, 11:54
Well, I haven't driven it but around town, but everytime I hit a 1/2 in bump it's pretty scary.
L. Anthony
17th February 2014, 03:51
Well, I haven't driven it but around town, but everytime I hit a 1/2 in bump it's pretty scary.
Suspension experts please.
Putting a penny on the tone arm is probably not going to work. Once the car is raised back up and the proper alignment is done tjings should be perfect.
Best Wishes and keep us posted.
funnythebunny
17th February 2014, 14:16
Wow, those fenders look like they were rolled with a 2x4... Good for you to rescue a Miata :)
91miata1
17th February 2014, 14:59
I believe the previous owner said something about "A baseball bat and a screwdriver". So...yeah. I'm a pretty good body man, and I believe I can roll the passenger quarter, little cutting and welding I may be able to save them. As far as the fenders, I see replacement in the near future. The interior is pretty nice, and luckily the engine and drivetrain are un touched. The only thing under the hood is an aluminum radiator. With only 80k original miles, she runs and shifts excellent. The only issues are the slave cyl and ride height, and the obvious ugliness of the car. I'm pretty handy, so I think I can bring the body back to life with minimal money spent, and several days labor. I'm going to try and do the suspension adjustment Friday, but I got to take it on some back roads today. 4.5k + rpms and some tight twisties are such a blast in this car (=
91miata1
25th February 2014, 21:00
Small update:
This past weekend I raided the car up abour an inch and a half. No more fender rub! So great to be able to drive it correctly. I do notice a little more roll on the twisties, which is to be expected. I'm sure some sway bars will help out.
When I had it up in the air I gave it a good look over, zero rust anywhere! Huge plus, very excited. I also greased up the doors and windows. The passenger door now opens about 1 ft farther than it would before.
I found out that the ghetto black crown sticker the PO put on my instrument cluster was to block the air bag light. So I need to get that unplugged and remove the sticker..
Threw a couple of speakers in the rear temporarily, help the stereo sound which in turn helps mask the various squeeks and thumps the car makes until I can diagnose and fix all of those (Very priority)
I inspected the slave, and didn't SEE and noticeable failures, but I'm going to order a new slave/master/line and full clutch kit for it when spring rolls around. Until then I've learned how to drive around the clutch issue. Not too big of a deal.
Placing an order for a piece of lexan to fix the rear glass, and a front windshield as mine is cracked.
Picking up supplies this weekend to do the fender repairs, if I can get it straight and nice I'm going ro re-plasti dip the entire car a metallic dark glossy grey until I can get a proper finish on it.
Also ordering everything I need for a full tune up, including a new crank nose bolt, and I'm hoping to get a decent exhaust on there soon (The non resonated exhaust on it now sounds like a very loud chain saw).
So that's that, will update as I go.
91miata1
2nd March 2014, 03:31
So new issue with my clutch. I'm noticing some slipping, but odly enough its mostly in 4th gear, and pretty noticeable. Rpms will waise about 2k before the car really starts accelerating. Hard to believe the clutch is going out at 80k miles on a stock drive train. Do you guys think this could be related to a bad slave/master, or do I need a new clutch?
91miata1
3rd March 2014, 00:09
Anybody? I'd like to get some opinions before ordering parts.
3MiataFamily
3rd March 2014, 10:14
Did you get the new slave and master installed yet?....check the pedal freeplay and adjust if necessary?
zamsmiata
3rd March 2014, 11:14
Symptoms of a bad slave include low pressure, soft clutch pedal (almost like a sponge). The clutch pedal May be all the way to the ground. Hard to get into gears commonly first and reverse.The slave could be leaking but you can't see it because usually the fluid just builds up within the black boot cover. Pull it back and you can see if there's a leak. But a strong slippage of the clutch would mean a replacement of the clutch itself.
91miata1
3rd March 2014, 12:23
Fantastic, that's what I needed to know. A few weeks back I saw somebody list a site on here that was selling the whole hydraulic replacement kit, anybody have a link to that?
3MiataFamily
3rd March 2014, 13:36
949 racing sells the complete kit..slave..master..and replacement long line to make bleeding a little easier..I think it is about 70 for the whole thing..
91miata1
3rd March 2014, 14:48
That's the one I was looking for, thank you. Has anybody used this kit? I'm curious about parts quality, I see some sites selling the slave for 80, master for 150 etc. Will the 70$ kit hold up?
project15
3rd March 2014, 14:58
I got the 949 slave and have no problems. Granted, it's only been about 3000 miles.
zamsmiata
3rd March 2014, 14:58
The slave and master are fairly tough. You can get by with a 30$ slave from your local auto store and it will last a very long time. As long as oem. It is always good as a preventative measure to change your master but it's not needed unless it is really dirty or the seals on the cap are worn. As for the clutch line...always go hard line oem. Braided lines are good but not as reliable due to expansion and what not. From my own experience at least.
91miata1
3rd March 2014, 15:02
Hmm, I see your point on the line of course, but I'm getting mixed reviews here. A lot of people prefer the flex line.
zamsmiata
3rd March 2014, 15:13
The flex line definitely is easier to work on and it does provide a better feel to the pedal. In my experience, I live in a cold area expansion and contraction takes a toll on non- hard lines. Circ*mstances may be different in your situation
91miata1
3rd March 2014, 15:34
I can see that. I'll think it over before deciding on my line.
starhm
3rd March 2014, 20:27
depends what you are doing. I replaced the master and slave and kept the original line. I did flush it a few times after the new master was installed. everyone is not kidding when they say how bad the junk builds in there. I haven't had any problems. make sure it is completely bled when done. I had to do this a couple of times.
Amorget
3rd March 2014, 20:42
When doing my master and slave I attempted to bleed the clutch 3 times over 2 days and could not get it to bleed right. That included using a vacuum bleeder. Installed the flex line and it was bled in a few minutes.
91miata1
3rd March 2014, 22:35
Hmm, I'll give the flex line a shot.
Mal
4th March 2014, 08:57
Did you get the new slave and master installed yet?....check the pedal freeplay and adjust if necessary?Amen, make sure there is some free play between the plunger and the master. Your slipping symptoms sound like a free play issue.
huesmann
4th March 2014, 10:20
The curly hard line makes bleeding tough.
91miata1
4th March 2014, 10:36
I know mal, this is why I was asking. I can understand clutch slip at 83k miles, some of these cars get beat pretty hard. But I really only notice the slipping in 4th, which struck me as odd.
91miata1
4th March 2014, 15:00
http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/exedy-oem-replacement-10036/?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adword&gclid=CM-WkNHH-bwCFTFk7Aodz3EAXQ
What about this clutch kit, seems it fits the applications and a quick Google search yields great reviews on a stock engine. And I haven't been able to beat this price anywhere.
Amorget
4th March 2014, 15:02
That's a great price, wish I had found that price when I ordered my kit (that I didn't end up using, the new master, slave, and flex line resolved my issue)
91miata1
4th March 2014, 15:05
At this price though even if I don't need it right now, would be worth buying to keep on a shelf.
Amorget
4th March 2014, 15:29
Yeah, that is why I didn't send mine back. With ~180k on the clock I figure I'll need a new clutch at some point.
91miata1
4th March 2014, 19:51
Yeah I'm having trouble accepting that mine went out at 83k miles, but I guess weirder things have happened.
zamsmiata
5th March 2014, 03:23
You never know how the previous owner drove it, probably launched at every green light lol.
91miata1
5th March 2014, 20:16
While I have the tranny down I'd like to do a flush to help ease up the shifts a bit. I could have sworn I saw a write up on what fluid to use for this, but now I can't find it. Would anybody be kind enough to chime in?
Amorget
5th March 2014, 20:27
I personally went ahead and bought the expensive stuff...
Motorcraft® Full Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid. Part# XT-M5-QS
91miata1
5th March 2014, 20:30
is this what's suggested to make the shifts smoother, did you notice a difference?
Amorget
5th March 2014, 20:39
That is what is suggested, along with Redline MTL from my understanding.
Mine didn't make a difference, however not really it's fault it is still sitting in the bottles... since I didn't have to replace the clutch I didn't change the fluid.
zamsmiata
6th March 2014, 01:05
Motorcraft synthetic transmission fluid for the transmission..it's good for all temperatures. That or redline. Also change the oil in the shift turret.
zamsmiata
6th March 2014, 01:07
Mine made a HUGE difference. Afterwards I also went ahead and bought a shifter rebuild kit...new bushings, inner boot covers and a few other stuff.
91miata1
6th March 2014, 08:07
Yeah mine shifts okay, but it is a 91, so I'm sure the tranny flush will help. Alright thanks for the feedback guys.
91miata1
7th March 2014, 18:59
So my hydraulic kit arrived, but did not come with the fluid like it was supposed to. So what is the recommended fluid for this?
Amorget
7th March 2014, 19:03
DOT3 or DOT4 brake fluid
91miata1
7th March 2014, 19:06
That's what I assumed, thank you.
AdamInFL
7th March 2014, 23:11
About a year (and 20,000 miles) ago, my slave cylinder went. As my Miata is my only car, I went with what was readily available, $20 master and $20 slave from Advance Auto Parts. I left the original hard line in between the master and slave. Swapping them out was pretty simple, and bleeding was very easy. Having a helper turns it into a 10 minute "Press the clutch, hold it in"/crack the bleeder nipple (I put a clear hose on the nipple to prevent air backing into the slave.) It's an easy project.
http://www.adamrichphotography.net/img/s9/v95/p1535999648-4.jpg
91miata1
8th March 2014, 01:27
Appreciate that pic, makes bleeding very clear. I will be tackling this tomorrow, so any last minute advice is appreciated.
AdamInFL
8th March 2014, 21:13
Not really. It's very straightforward. I put a LOT of rags (first a layer of visqueen) under the master cylinder when I unhooked it/took it out. It kept the spillage from getting on painted surfaces... that's about all I can think of :)
Good luck!
91miata1
11th March 2014, 19:30
well things came up, didn't get to replacing the hydraulics until today. They seemed to go on without a problem. I noticed some people talking about adjusting the new hydraulics, I did not see anything to adjust. I left the clutch pedal alone, and made sure the new master an slave looked to be in the same position as the old ones. If I need to do further adjustment please let me know.
Unfortunately I could not reach the old curly line to remove it, so I did not use the new line that came with my kit. So, being as I am still using the old line, does anybody have any tips for bleeding? I will be doing this manual.
prb
12th March 2014, 03:02
well things came up, didn't get to replacing the hydraulics until today. They seemed to go on without a problem. I noticed some people talking about adjusting the new hydraulics, I did not see anything to adjust. I left the clutch pedal alone, and made sure the new master an slave looked to be in the same position as the old ones. If I need to do further adjustment please let me know.
Unfortunately I could not reach the old curly line to remove it, so I did not use the new line that came with my kit. So, being as I am still using the old line, does anybody have any tips for bleeding? I will be doing this manual.
Bleeding methods are listed in this article:
http://wiki.miata.net/tiki-index.php?page=NA-NB-NC%20Clutch%20Hydraulics
91miata1
12th March 2014, 07:11
Yeah I read that article, it seems simple enough on paper, but everybody says that its a real pain bleeding with the curly line, so I was just wondering if anybody had any little tips on doing it.
Amorget
12th March 2014, 16:17
My only tip... take the time to replace the curly line with your new flex line. I just disconnected the entire thing at the firewall and the slave and took it out as a whole unit instead of trying to disconnect the soft line from the hard line near the transmission.
Mal
13th March 2014, 16:12
Looking OK won't do for checking free play between the plunger and the master. It's super easy to check and adjust and the system, quite literally, won't work properly if it's over adjusted. It's the cylindrical shaped plunger that fits into a slight cup in the master. It adjusts by loosening a nut and turning the plunger itself, then retighten of course. Some clearance is enough. It should just wiggle freely in the cup. There is another adjustment on the pedal itself but that one is not as critical.
91miata1
13th March 2014, 18:06
Hmm, if I'm using an identical master, and the clutch was properly adjusted when I removed the old master, it seems like I wouldn't have to mess with the adjustment. Is this not true?
Gene Stanley
13th March 2014, 20:11
You should be able to feel a quarter to a half inch of free play by pushing your hand on the clutch pedal
Mal
13th March 2014, 22:30
You should be able to feel a quarter to a half inch of free play by pushing your hand on the clutch pedalUnfortunately there are two adjustments and that is not the critical one.
Mal
13th March 2014, 22:36
Hmm, if I'm using an identical master, and the clutch was properly adjusted when I removed the old master, it seems like I wouldn't have to mess with the adjustment. Is this not true?Are you sure about that?So new issue with my clutch. I'm noticing some slipping, but odly enough its mostly in 4th gear, and pretty noticeable. Rpms will waise about 2k before the car really starts accelerating. Hard to believe the clutch is going out at 80k miles on a stock drive train. Do you guys think this could be related to a bad slave/master, or do I need a new clutch?Or the adjustment of which I speak is bad...
91miata1
13th March 2014, 22:47
No, I'm not sure of that. That's what I'm trying to figure out lol. But it seems odd that if the adjustment is bad causing the clutch to slip, why did it only start recently? Or perhaps it was always very slightly off, and slowly over time caused premature clutch wear?
91miata1
14th March 2014, 19:32
Update time!
Alright so, I got the new flex line on. Man getting that old one off was a PITA. But anyways she finally came off. Bled it out, kept bleeding until all of the old nasty fluid was gone and new clear bubble free fluid was flowing smoothly. Took ~4 minutes doing it the old fashioned way.I probably flushed around 1 whole mast cyl reservoir of fluid threw it total just to be safe.
Then went for a test drive. At first things seemed perfect. Shifted into gear just fine, I can finally leave it in gear while sitting still without it catching and trying to stall, no issues. Then after about 15 minutes I did start to notice a little clutch slippage. Not nearly what it was before, but slightly. Went on several drives. When cold the clutch holds pretty good, once it warms up a bit it starts to slip a little under hard acceleration. But again nothing like it used to be.
But now I wonder if the slight slipping is from the hydraulics being out of adjustment, or if it is truly time for the new clutch.
prb
14th March 2014, 21:53
At first things seemed perfect. Shifted into gear just fine, I can finally leave it in gear while sitting still without it catching and trying to stall, no issues. Then after about 15 minutes I did start to notice a little clutch slippage. Not nearly what it was before, but slightly. Went on several drives. When cold the clutch holds pretty good, once it warms up a bit it starts to slip a little under hard acceleration. But again nothing like it used to be.
This is undoubtedly a hydraulic issue.
Either the clutch pedal pushrod has no freeplay or the master cylinder is faulty.
91miata1
14th March 2014, 21:58
I don't think the master is faulty, because for one it's brand new (Which I know doesn't mean everything), and because its about a 90% improvement over what it was before the swap. Also it seems to be functioning properly as far as clutch release. So this leads me to believe it's an adjustment issue. So I'll brush up on how to check this adjustment, and post back after I mess with it tomorrow.
Does anybody have a link to a good guide? I'll search and check the archives.
huesmann
15th March 2014, 11:51
Just because it's brand new doesn't mean that it's not faulty.
91miata1
15th March 2014, 11:56
Which is why I clearly stated new doesn't mean everything. However if you went on to read I further explained why I don't believe the problem to be a faulty master.
91miata1
15th March 2014, 20:15
So it's not my free play. Tripple checked that and it's fine. Actually seemed like it might be too much, but the car goes into gear fine, so whatever I'll leave it alone for now.
Started dropping the tranny to do the clutch, but realized I don't have enough daylight left today. Got the 2 upper bolts (1 o'clock and 11 o'clock) weren't too bad. My exhaust no longer un bolts, so that's sweet... And somebody hit the edge of one of the bellhousing bolts with a grinder, so the 17 MM no longer fits. So I get to figure out how to get that one off.
Mal
15th March 2014, 21:55
Update time!
Alright so, I got the new flex line on. Man getting that old one off was a PITA. But anyways she finally came off. Bled it out, kept bleeding until all of the old nasty fluid was gone and new clear bubble free fluid was flowing smoothly. Took ~4 minutes doing it the old fashioned way.I probably flushed around 1 whole mast cyl reservoir of fluid threw it total just to be safe.
Then went for a test drive. At first things seemed perfect. Shifted into gear just fine, I can finally leave it in gear while sitting still without it catching and trying to stall, no issues. Then after about 15 minutes I did start to notice a little clutch slippage. Not nearly what it was before, but slightly. Went on several drives. When cold the clutch holds pretty good, once it warms up a bit it starts to slip a little under hard acceleration. But again nothing like it used to be.
But now I wonder if the slight slipping is from the hydraulics being out of adjustment, or if it is truly time for the new clutch.You say the free play is fine. Those symptoms, however as Prb said are classic of over adjusted free play or an otherwise clogged normalizing hole (bad master). I can't think of anything else that would cause those symptoms. If things work normally after sitting overnight it's almost a sure thing.
91miata1
15th March 2014, 22:10
They don't work normally. It always shift fine, but the clutch has slippage. The free play is fine, and the master seems to be working properly, and I double check the bleeding today.
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